[cohland]

Is there such thing as a light trigger spring, lighter than OEM? That would likely reduce pull more, don't you think? I put a NY1 spring in mine (heavier than OEM I think) when I changed the connector. I'm going back to OEM spring, I think.

Hays

I have never seen a lighter trigger spring for Glocks. I think that the OEM spring puts just the right balance of friction into the trigger and assists the pull after the break just enough to work well.

Chris

 

[cohland]

To get the reduced trigger pull weight, I believe one needs to use a stiffer trigger spring and a lighter striker spring together with the lower pull weight connector.

I agree regarding the connector and the lighter striker spring, but I am not sure about the trigger spring at all. Not saying you are wrong, just that I'm not sure about the trigger spring.

What I am sure about is that none of the companies selling "4.5#" or "3.5#" connectors bother themselves with the other factors in trigger pull that you have listed. If you read the packaging that comes with the connectors, or what they say on their websites, they are claiming that the connector alone will deliver a 3.5# trigger pull. And as some of us know from experience, that is not the case.

Chris

 

[cohland]

Chris, am I correct in you are working with a Gen 4?

No, the G21SF is Gen3. Haven't got the parts I want to run the tests with Gen4 yet. Will reply to Hays' message though.

Chris

 

[cohland]

When I put a new 3.5 lb connector in my g23, I put a NY1 trigger spring in at the same time. The NY1, I believe, is commonly known to be a heavier trigger spring than Glock standard factory .. I believe it's 8 lbs, not sure. Tonight I took out the NY1 and replaced it with the original OEM trigger spring, while still keeping the 3.5 lb connector.

There's no question in my mind that the change to the lighter trigger spring produced a lighter trigger pull when dry firing. I don't have a measurement device, just going on feel.

Taking it to the range tomorrow...

The NY Trigger springs were developed to replicate the feel of a double-action revolver for the NYPD, as legend has it. They were intended to generate a very heavy pull, and have a design that's quite different from the single springs that come in the guns now. Here is what the Glock Armorer's Manual says in the Trigger Pull Weight Chart:

With a standard connector the standard trigger spring is rated "˜5.5 lbs", the NY1 (olive color) is rated "˜9 lbs" and the NY1 (orange) is rated "˜11 lbs".

With a + connector the standard trigger spring is rated "˜8 lbs".

With a - connector the standard trigger spring is rated "˜4.5 lbs", the NY1 (olive color) is rated "˜7.5 lbs".

I have not looked closely at the NY trigger springs to see how they might affect trigger pull differently from the standard springs. I believe that the NY springs are compressed but the standards are stretched. Since you have one of the NY springs, can you figure out how it is supposed to work?

Chris

 

[cohland]

Good question, I'm not really sure I understand what the regular trigger spring is doing. The OEM spring appears to be stretched open when the trigger is reset. As the trigger pulls, the spring is pulling itself closed (or relaxed state which is short). So, it seems like the trigger spring is aiding the cruciform to pull to the rear as you pull the trigger. Then, I guess, it resists as the slide moves forward to reset the trigger.

The NY1 is a triangle with 2 sides plastic and one side being the spring. I think it is naturally open (long) when the trigger is reset. As you pull the trigger, it seems to resist the cruciform as it is being pushed down like a shock absorber. Then, it snaps back open when the trigger is reset.

At least, that's the way it appears to me. So, it seems to me that the regular spring is naturally short and is pulled long with the trigger reset. The NY spring is naturally long and is pushed short (like a shock absorber) as the trigger is pulled.

Don't know if that makes sense, but that's the way I see it right now. I don't know much about springs, but common sense tells me that there are 2 kinds, one that is short and resists being pulled long, the other is long and resists being pushed short. I think the OEM is the first and the NY is the last.

So, as I think about it, a "heavier" trigger spring that is like the OEM (short resisting being pulled long) would logically seem to aid in the trigger pull as it is being released back to its short relaxed state. But, you disproved that the heavier spring didn't reduce the pull any? So, I'm lost. The NY spring works entirely differently I believe and is not comparing apples to apples with the OEM spring.

Thanks, that sounds like a plausible explanation of how the springs ought to work. Nice work!

I have to order some parts here in a few days, so I'll get a couple of those NY trigger springs to I can see how they work. I'm sure you're right, but there's nothing like seeing something to help me learn.

In case you haven't seen it, here's a good animation of how a Glock works:

Glock Pistol Animation

Chris

 

[cohland]

no it doesn't but just the opposite, Those that know a little about the Winchester '94 knows how heavy/thick the trigger spring is and the heavy trigger pull that follows it. The pull is close to 10lbs when new, gritty and the slop/creep within it. I was slowly getting annoyed with it so after owning it a few years without shooting it for whatever reason (or right annoyed )so I decided to do something about it. I removed the trigger spring and cut about 6 or 7 loops out of it if I remember correctly, polished all the metal to metal contact to a mirror shine and reinstalled. Like magic the pull dropped to 4.5 to 5 lbs according to my Lymans digital pull gauge and the creep and trigger play was gone. The play was done with other steps like this post too long to give instructions but conclusion was fantastic, I think it is the best results short of installing a new custom trigger which it seems no one makes or sales one.

Are you describing changes you made to a Winchester 94 trigger spring or a Glock trigger spring?

The Winchester 94 trigger stop spring is a leaf spring (P/N 7394X or 7494X). That rifle does have a coiled compression hammer spring (P/N 4594X), which sounds like what you modified......
......
.....
....
...
..
. doesn't it?

Chris

 

[cohland]

Chris, I am sorry for taking your thread OT

No worries, it happens all the time!

Chris

 

[cohland]

To get the Glock trigger to have a lighter pull, one must reduce the strength of the striker spring. The first "spring action" is the compression of the striker spring. The trigger spring should almost more aptly be called the cruciform spring and it has more to do with reset of the trigger than trigger pull.

So, for the adventurous, IMHO the formula is: (and I don't use or advocate this)

1. Lighter striker spring
2. Heavier "trigger spring"
3. Friction reduction on all contact surfaces involved in the trigger movement.

The best solution to the the Glock trigger is to leave it stock and learn trigger control by shooting your Glock more...

You are correct on all counts, sir. I would add one other thing that can be done that helps a little, and that is to install a light firing pin safety spring. It pretty well eliminates a "bump" in the trigger pull and smoothes it out.

I would further add that if a shooter is fixated on having a really wonderful trigger, and that other factors such as low cost, light weight, magazine capacity, reliability, and simplicity are secondary, then they probably ought to be honest with themselves and get a pistol that can easily have a great trigger: the 1911.

Chris

 

[cohland]

Chris,
This thread and its predecessor has certainly made for interesting and enjoyable reading. You've probably already figured this out, and I think you've implied this in your posts. I tend to look at the trigger pull in two (or maybe even three) stages. 1) trigger take-up, and 2) trigger break. Due to the angle at which the heavier trigger spring is installed, I think it definitely helps in stage 1 (trigger take-up). The spring is aligned almost perfectly with the direction of travel of the striker pin. So the heavier trigger spring assists in overcoming the force of a) the striker spring, and b) the friction caused by the striker safety.
The force in the trigger break stage changes direction. In addition to the loads from the first stage, the trigger bar now is forced into traveling also in a vertical direction downward. (Actually it's more of a 45 degree angle, but I want to emphasize the downward direction). This is the stage at which the trigger bar is dropping to break contact with the nose of the striker. Since the trigger spring is aligned almost horizontally, it doesn't help overcome the resistance to the downward part of the motion. As a matter of fact, the trigger spring is oriented not in a true horizontal plane, but at a slight angle such that it opposes the downward vertical motion of the trigger bar. So that might also explain why the trigger pull measurement actually increased in your experiment.
I hope this makes sense. It does in my head!
I guess the short version of what I'm trying to say is that a heavier trigger spring does help in the beginning of the trigger pull, but doesn't help at all with the trigger break.

Ranger,

You have really given this some thought, good work. A agree with your definition of the pull as having two stages, but I might even add a middle stage: feeling the trigger bar depress the firing pin safety plunger.

You mention the angle of the heavier trigger spring, by that do you mean that it is somehow different from a standard trigger spring?

Based on what you've said I'm going to take a Glock apart and stare at the trigger bar movement some more. Sure wish I had a cutaway gun, I've got to ask my Glock rep about that.

Good, thought-provoking post! I'll be following up with more in a day or so.

Thanks,
Chris

 

[cohland]

Hi Chris,
No, I didn't mean to imply the angle was different on a heavy trigger spring. Just that since it is heavier than the standard spring, you begin to notice the additional force being applied in the wrong direction.
I've gotta get a picture, we know what they are worth!

Ah, OK, now I understand. Good point. By the way, I just wrote to my local Glock LE rep and asked about getting a cutaway. We'll see what happens. Stay tuned.

Chris

 

[cohland]

Here we go, maybe this will help. When everything is assembled, the trigger spring is at a slight downward angle as shown. So the force it implies is pulling back and up. This helps with the linear motion of the trigger bar during take-up, but when the connector tries to force the trigger bar down (trigger break), the trigger spring opposes this movement.

Good follow through, thanks.

Another factor that might enter into this is any vertical movement of the trigger bar on its path to the rear, and we can't really see that with the top off the gun because the slide is steering the bar and the connector (right?). That's why I want a cutaway, I want to look closely at what is happening to the trigger bar and connector. Seeing that might offer some clues about areas of friction, places where we might polish and get a little less friction.

Your post certainly adds to the knowledge base, well done!

Chris