Why did they not have to provide ID? Cal open carry issue

GlockNewb

Discussion Starter · #2 · Dec 22, 2010

I have always been under the impression that if a LEO asks you for identification, you are obligated to provide it...

I think this guy should not have approached the officer at all on his stop...but is there anyone that can really clarify this?

Another example

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TheLaw

· #3 · Dec 22, 2010

They are Open Carrying. Not 100% on all the ins and outs but basically, in the city you can open carry, but the firearm has to be unloaded, magazine out. You can have a magazine in your back pocket, front pocket, etc.. just not in the gun. You cannot conceal. With that, the LEOs were allowed to stop and check anyone Open Carrying to make sure they were following the law. The not providing ID comes in where they want to say they was no RAS for the LEO to ask, they weren't driving a car, etc..

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GlockNewb

Discussion Starter · #4 · Dec 22, 2010

"The not providing ID comes in where they want to say they was no RAS for the LEO to ask, they weren't driving a car, etc.. "

Please define RAS, and thanks for the info!!!

GN

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TheLaw

· #5 · Dec 22, 2010

RAS - reasonable articulable suspicion

Reasonable suspicion is a legal standard standard of proof in United States law that is less than probable cause, the legal standard for arrests and warrants, but more than an "inchoate and unparticularized suspicion or 'hunch' ";[1] it must be based on "specific and articulable facts", "taken together with rational inferences from those facts". (bold added by me)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_suspicion

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GlockNewb

Discussion Starter · #6 · Dec 22, 2010

Again, Thanks as always!

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jlw

· #7 · Dec 22, 2010

There was no Reasonable Articulable Suspicion or Probable Cause to believe that a crime therefore no reason to legally compel identification.

Here is an explanation of RAS and PC:

http://chiefweems.wordpress.com/2010/08/03/the-2-3-4-rule-2/

More trustworthy than a wiki entry I hope.

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__jb

· #8 · Dec 22, 2010

I love it when the Cop says he'd appreciate it if the video wasn't posted anywhere...

Nah, just a small post on YouTube with links to every gun forum on the planet... Who'll see it there?

I don't understand all the California gun laws... Is open carry allowed, but concealed carry denied?

It seemed like everyone in the video was acting like a jerk... the Cop and the civilians...

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TheLaw

· #9 · Dec 22, 2010

jlweems said:
There was no Reasonable Articulable Suspicion or Probable Cause to believe that a crime therefore no reason to legally compel identification.

Here is an explanation of RAS and PC:

http://chiefweems.wordpress.com/2010/08/03/the-2-3-4-rule-2/

More trustworthy than a wiki entry I hope.

Clearly more trustworthy. I was actually going to suggest you reply to the thread if the OP wanted more info on RAS but he took my definition with no further questions so I dropped it.

For those that aren't "in the know", JL has been fighting hard to create POST Certified training courses for LEOs here in GA related to Citizens Legally carrying firearms. To my knowledge, he has the only POST approved course and is working on getting agencies across the state trained on the do's and dont's of how to deal (or not deal) with an armed citizen here in the State of GA.

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jlw

· #10 · Dec 22, 2010

CA law allows for the open carry of an unloaded firearm without any sort of license or permit. Their law does allow for an inspection of the firearm to see if it is unloaded; however, the presence of a firearm isn't PC or RAS; so, there is no legal way to compel ID.

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USAntigoon

· #11 · Dec 22, 2010

Just amazing to see how all states have their own laws governing what should not be very simple under the 2A...Even with a CPL you need to carry either a lawyer or several law books with you traveling from one state to another.. Anyway, this was just a rant..(I feel better now)

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GlockNewb

Discussion Starter · #12 · Dec 23, 2010

jlweems said:
CA law allows for the open carry of an unloaded firearm without any sort of license or permit. Their law does allow for an inspection of the firearm to see if it is unloaded; however, the presence of a firearm isn't PC or RAS; so, there is no legal way to compel ID.

(Quote Originally Posted by jlweems View Post
There was no Reasonable Articulable Suspicion or Probable Cause to believe that a crime therefore no reason to legally compel identification.

Here is an explanation of RAS and PC:

http://chiefweems.wordpress.com/2010...-2-3-4-rule-2/

More trustworthy than a wiki entry I hope.
Clearly more trustworthy. I was actually going to suggest you reply to the thread if the OP wanted more info on RAS but he took my definition with no further questions so I dropped it.

For those that aren't "in the know", JL has been fighting hard to create POST Certified training courses for LEOs here in GA related to Citizens Legally carrying firearms. To my knowledge, he has the only POST approved course and is working on getting agencies across the state trained on the do's and dont's of how to deal (or not deal) with an armed citizen here in the State of GA. )

All great info and has answered many questions for me! Thanks guys!

GN

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__jb

· #13 · Dec 23, 2010

jlweems said:
CA law allows for the open carry of an unloaded firearm without any sort of license or permit. Their law does allow for an inspection of the firearm to see if it is unloaded; however, the presence of a firearm isn't PC or RAS; so, there is no legal way to compel ID.

Thanks for the info...

Turns out the Cop was within his rights to inspect their guns... and the civilaina were within their rights to refuse to give him ID... not what I was thinking...

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