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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I looked around a bit for a thread about this to no avail. Last Thursday, a conceal and carry permit holder walked out to his car from a store and witnessed a man robbing a woman and pistol whipping her. He chased the suspect down, confronted the man and shot him. Here's the link:

http://www.startribune.com/local/minneapolis/132311553.html

Sounds like the guy is going to get off with no charges and was only brought in for a statement. To my knowledge, it doesn't seem to fit into our conceal and carry rules that were pounded in to us when you took the class. Deadly force is last option in Minnesota. But the guy chased the robber down. Doesn't seem like that was last option.
What your idea after reading the story? I know that every states laws are different but your ideas may help me understand how this could happen and no charges to the permit holder. - Todd
 

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I agree.
Once the suspect fled the scene of the robbery (even if it was a violent one), the direct threat was no longer present. In MN the only justification for self-defense, defense of a loved one/family, or (under certain conditions) the defense of a stranger is to stop the threat. Him chasing the suspect goes against the "conflict avoidance" part of a CCW permit holder's responsibilities.

I think the shooter was in the wrong.
Regardless if there are criminal charges filed, you can be sure that if the burglar had family, there will be a civil suit.
 

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I agree the threat was gone and the shooter was in the wrong. I hope he does get off because other bad guy off the streets but at the same time I would not have chased him down knowing he has a gun to deal with him. I might have with no gun in sight to see where he was going to inform police of his location but knowing he has a gun was crazy on this guys part even if he was carrying his own.
 

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Agree with the above, personally I am not LEO. Nuff said. Another point, not mentioned, although no charges being brought on the "vigil" , he could face a wrongful death suit from family members. Especially if he chased this person down.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I just heard on the radio that if charges are coming they will most likely happen tomorrow or Friday. The investigation is all wrapped up and headed to the DA office.
 

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Yet another incident that if I did CCW, which I don't, I would hope I had the self control not to try to be a hero. I believe everyone would have been better off if the "concerned citizen" had offered assistance to the injured woman, instead of playing vigilante.

It would be very difficult to resist the temptation to intervene, but with power comes responsibility, and killing a young man over a robbery is wrong. If the "robber" was attempting to kill the woman instead of trying to flee... Then different story.
 

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...What your idea after reading the story? I know that every states laws are different but your ideas may help me understand how this could happen and no charges to the permit holder. - Todd
I will be interested to see how this develops, it could prove to be very instructive to all of us. I'm not a lawyer, so I won't speculate, but I'm going to pay very close attention to this one.

Chris
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Ed, you got a way with words. "with power comes responsibility" Soooo true. I (as well as most of us) wouldn't know how I would act unless you are in the situation. I have been in a good handful of fights(situations) over the years and I have learned that patience is key but to witness someone getting "pistol whipped" I believe I would have done something... That something, being call the police and follow at a distance, if possible, to get a position (for the police) on the criminal's whereabouts knowing that I could possibly defend myself. In all actuality, maybe that was what he was doing. But I doubt it!
 

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Ed, you got a way with words. "with power comes responsibility" Soooo true. I (as well as most of us) wouldn't know how I would act unless you are in the situation. I have been in a good handful of fights(situations) over the years and I have learned that patience is key but to witness someone getting "pistol whipped" I believe I would have done something... That something, being call the police and follow at a distance, if possible, to get a position (for the police) on the criminal's whereabouts knowing that I could possibly defend myself. In all actuality, maybe that was what he was doing. But I doubt it!
That's true, perhaps he was just trying to follow the bad guy, but, like you, I doubt that. I'm all for beating the piss out of a low life that would hit a woman, much less pistol whip her. That's how I "feel", but if you're gonna carry and you're not a LEO, your responsibility is to stay in control. You give up the option of acting on impulse when you choose to CCW, IMHO,in a situation as described anyway.

Unfortunately, the anti 2nd amendment crowd love to use situations like the one described to demand that "the streets need to be safe from these wanna be Rambo's and their undetectible assault weapons that they're just itching to kill some one with!" that's where the power / responsibility stuff really comes to play. And that's not even getting into the morals aspect of playing judge, jury and executioner....
 

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im in mn and know what you are talking about
no charges are filed on the guy because we have a good samaritan law saying we need to and can help when someone is in danger like that
i does go against what is taught in cc class though where they say flight or fight if left with no other option
the robber had a history of violent robberies was released from incarceration not long ago for the same thing 1st degree robbery
i am sorry to say if the cc good samaritan didnt do what he did there would have been another victim that may not have made it next time
 

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im in mn and know what you are talking about
no charges are filed on the guy because we have a good samaritan law saying we need to and can help when someone is in danger like that
i does go against what is taught in cc class though where they say flight or fight if left with no other option
the robber had a history of violent robberies was released from incarceration not long ago for the same thing 1st degree robbery
i am sorry to say if the cc good samaritan didnt do what he did there would have been another victim that may not have made it next time
I hear what you're saying, but...
At the time of the incident, the armed citizen did not know that guy had a record. Had the burglar not had a record, and this citizen chased him down and killed him after an armed burglary, I think people might better see his mistake. The moment the burglar fled, the threat was no longer present. As a CCW permit holder, you are obligated to (when at all possible) avoid confrontation and/or conflict. This guy did the very opposite. He chased a guy (who he knew was armed) down and shot him. Even if it was self defense at the point of the shooting, he should have attempted to avoid the situation in the first place by not chasing him.
 

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i hear what you are saying
he only shot the guy after a confrontation they didnt say whether the ccgs had his gun drawn already or any critical details
for what we know he could have done what the others said followed the robber robber sees gs turns to shoot the gs,gs shoots robber
poor choice of words makes or breaks a case chase vs follow we all know how the media likes to twist words.the right words must have been used,the county attorney
didnt pursue charges.this case may be going before the grand jury cant recall what was said.
about a decade ago before we had general ptc some neighbors had an altercation
both returned to their houses and returned to the scene armed after a brief shoot out one was dead and the other had no charges pressed on him due to they were both armed.something like an old fashion duel,wrote off as mutual combat
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
From what I have read and heard of the situation the CC told the police where the robber threw or ditch the gun? Atleast, that is how I took it, maybe he dropped it after being shot? We will not know until they release the report. In any case, the streets are safer in Minneapolis by the CC removing a known threat to common wealth and maybe that will send a small message to others like him. -Todd
 

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First...lets thank the concerned citizen for reacting...
As many lazy Americans would have ran the other way...
Second...we need to remember that having a CCW does not prevent the citizen from exercising any citizen arrest privileges the state has...
Now I am not saying chase suspects and shot them...lets just don't condemn him for his actions with ALL the facts

And many thanks for going extra mile good citizen
 

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First...lets thank the concerned citizen for reacting...
As many lazy Americans would have ran the other way...
Second...we need to remember that having a CCW does not prevent the citizen from exercising any citizen arrest privileges the state has...
Now I am not saying chase suspects and shot them...lets just don't condemn him for his actions with ALL the facts

And many thanks for going extra mile good citizen
I have to disagree with you on this one.
"having a CCW does not prevent the citizen from exercising any citizen arrest privileges the state has"
This is true, but as a CCW permit holder, your mindset needs to be a little bit different than that of a normal person. You need to do anything and everything possible to avoid conflict. You do NOT chase an armed burglar down knowing that there is a strong chance that in doing so you will have to resort to lethal force. If he had simply been a good witness, the police may have been able to take him alive.

You can't even argue the point of: "He had a record and would have most likely attacked another person," as the shooter did not know this at the time of the shooting. What the burglar did was wrong, but there is no reason that guy should have chased him down after the initial threat was gone.
 

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I have to disagree with you on this one.
but as a CCW permit holder, your mindset needs to be a little bit different than that of a normal person. You need to do anything and everything possible to avoid conflict.
I disagree with this statement. EVERY person needs to do anything and everything possible to avoid such conflict whether you carry or not. The mindset should be the same. But some conflict is unavoidable. And stopping someone you know has a gun and is using it violently against innocent people is one of those situations that should be unavoidable to a responsible citizen. In this situation, using your gun is still only ok if the suspect turns on you and presents an imminent threat of serious physical harm (which we don't know the facts of this case to judge), but just because he was carrying doesn't relieve him of a civic duty to protect the public from a known threat. States have citizen arrest statutes for felonies they witness for a reason: to protect the public from further harm if a citizen witness a violent crime. Whether you carry or not, you should still take that responsibility seriously.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I was talking with a friend that is a County Sheriff's Deputy and he stated "saw the report and the CCW did not see the robber with a gun. He saw him hit the lady. He followed the man and was going to confront him when the robber turned and displayed a handgun. CCW drew his weapon and fired twice..." End of robber. Totally within the laws of the state of a MN CCW permit.
Either that or the CCW knew exactly how to put it into words to make it fit within the laws! -Todd
 
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