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17K views 58 replies 13 participants last post by  onalandline 
#1 · (Edited)
rumor on the street is the FBI has been aprroved to switch from the .40 cal and go to a 9mm...
 
#3 ·
There testing and showing almost no difference in effectiveness in shooting people

Agents are more accurate, better qual times, less recoil, less time off target.

the benifits gained by a 40 are very very few. while the down sides are many. From what im hearing they are finally realizing what a lot of people in the industry have known
 
#6 ·
Interesting, but still a bit surprising... They already moved from 10mm to .40...

I've heard that an increased emphasis on round count is also part of the reason...
 
#7 ·
So instead of the 23 and 22, they'll be sporting a 19 or 17? Didn't they just acquire the 23 not long ago? Seems like they have a lot of tax money to be playing around with in these uncertain times......
 
#17 ·
Benefits: more capacity :usually 1 in a same sized firearm. Pretty small deciding factor.

Price: to train with anyway: SD ammo is mostly the same price between the two

Drawbacks of 9mm:
Barrier penetration: light weight, less penetration through glass, cinder block, you name it. In the FBI line of work- Huge

Size expanded: lesser

Ft/Lbs of energy: lesser, thus less energy transferred into BG to incapacitate

To say the 9mm is better or equal all around is just.. Wrong. You can't deny a .40 and .45 hurt more the same way you can't say a toothpick hurts the same to be stabbed with as an ice pick

Also, shot placement won't come down to the round, it comes down to the shooter. Don't give me the "9mm is easier to follow up with" because without training you won't follow up with anything, .40 or 9.

The reason the .45 was and is so successful even at much lower velocity than a 9mm is due to weight, an all too important factor. You'll tell the difference between a bus hitting you doing sixty and a miata hitting you doing 80. And weight is on the .40 side.

There wasn't just "some idiot" picking the FBI's next carry round when they chose the .40 so to say the .40 was a "solution looking for a problem" is well.. wrong.

I already admitted I like the 9, my wife carries a 9.. The 9 is a good round, but the only reason I can see the FBI adopting it is because
1)it's cheaper- times are hard
2)they're not shooting through things like they were (when the .40 was adopted from the 10mm when the police were outgunned in the Miami shoot out)

You made a point to say the .40 fills a niche that didn't exist, thus, rendering it a useless cartridge... Well not too many people can agree with that. The FBI sure didn't for years.
 
#18 ·
Benefits: more capacity :usually 1 in a same sized firearm. Pretty small deciding factor.

common sense tells me that the more rounds I have the better of i am. Less chance of a reload understress, less chance of fumbling a mag, less time out of the fight, and more situations I can deal with. whether thats one round, 3 rounds or 5 rounds. Rounds are rounds. and when you are in a gun fight... they save Lives

Price: to train with anyway: SD ammo is mostly the same price between the two

Your right. Im buying 9mm rounds for 150 a case right now. far less than .40's. I can train more. Which means I become more profficient at getting good hits faster. The most important thing.

Drawbacks of 9mm:
Barrier penetration: light weight, less penetration through glass, cinder block, you name it. In the FBI line of work- Huge

have you personally shot 9mm rounds and .40 rounds through glass? what were your results? I have. and mine through both automotive glass and residential window glass showed almost no difference. but id love to hear your first hand expereince.

Size expanded: lesser

how much more do you thing a .40 projectile expands than a roughly .357 inch projectile? ha WAY more? no not quite. I suggest you do some reading by Doc Roberts, one of the most respect names in ballistic research.

Ft/Lbs of energy: lesser, thus less energy transferred into BG to incapacitate

neither 9mm, .40cal, or .45 have enough kinetic energy to accomplish instant incompacitation all the time. out side of a solid CNS shot. all three suck at killing people period. the permenant wound cavity created by those three calibers is minimal in the world of firearms.

To say the 9mm is better or equal all around is just.. Wrong. You can't deny a .40 and .45 hurt more the same way you can't say a toothpick hurts the same to be stabbed with as an ice pick

explain how its wrong? im not saying that the .40 is a BAD caliber. im simply stating it does very few things better than the 9mm. and what it does is only marginally better.

Also, shot placement won't come down to the round, it comes down to the shooter. Don't give me the "9mm is easier to follow up with" because without training you won't follow up with anything, .40 or 9.

Dont even know how to respond to that. Its physics less recoill = less recoild to manage= less time off target... how can you argue with that? your telling my you can keep a .45 on target just as welll as a .22? nope dont think so. and your right it comes with time and training. and with lower cost ammo you can train more and lessen the time it takes to get there

The reason the .45 was and is so successful even at much lower velocity than a 9mm is due to weight, an all too important factor. You'll tell the difference between a bus hitting you doing sixty and a miata hitting you doing 80. And weight is on the .40 side.

Correct to a point. the different in weight between a 147 gr and 230 grain bullet is a big difference. But how much difference do you really thing there is in kenetic energy transfer between a 147 gr bullet and a 160-180 gr bullet? really? you think theres that much to make a noticable difference? once again I refer you to do some research on ballistics and shootings

As far as the bus vs miata arguement? really? you think the differenct in .043 of an inch and 20-30 grs is the same as comparing a bus to a compact sports car? try again.


There wasn't just "some idiot" picking the FBI's next carry round when they chose the .40 so to say the .40 was a "solution looking for a problem" is well.. wrong.

Actually what you seen was a lot of agency witching over to the 40 based on what they were seeing on paper. there was little ballistic evidence at the time to make an actuall hard use educated opinion on it. what your finding now after years of data coming in from around the world involving the .40 cal in shootings is that it does not perform to the huge standard that people like your self think it does. hence agencies heavily considering going to the 9mm for the benifits out side of the marginal difference of what size hole it pokes.



I already admitted I like the 9, my wife carries a 9.. The 9 is a good round, but the only reason I can see the FBI adopting it is because
1)it's cheaper- times are hard
2)they're not shooting through things like they were (when the .40 was adopted from the 10mm when the police were outgunned in the Miami shoot out)

How many times do you think the FBI is going to sit there with their .40 cal pistols and shoot through s cinder block wall? c'mon man.

Durring the miami shoot out there were officers with shotguns, 9mm's and .357's
so saying they were out gun would also have to include the shotuns and .357's. But had they had the magical .40 cal ammo all would hve been well? riiiiiight

You made a point to say the .40 fills a niche that didn't exist, thus, rendering it a useless cartridge... Well not too many people can agree with that. The FBI sure didn't for years.
Well first off i never said it was a useless caliber. just a caliber that doesnt fill a role any better than what is out there.

The funny thing is that you are using the arguement that the FBI used it so it had to be good. but when they do more research and testing and find out that it isnt performing better than any other pistol caliber all of a sudden they are just money driven. LMAO.

remember balistic geletin isnt human. it doesnt have working systems. a brain that had enough oxygen to continue to fight for 15-20 sec after the heart has been blown out. Thats where most people on the internet are mistaken. they look at expansion size (which there is barely a difference) and slight penetration differences and go WOW that must work sooooo much better! but they forget that the human body is strong as hell. Bullets bounce off skulls, people have taken multiple hits from 9mm, .40cal, and .45 and still lived. there are no deffinites, HANDGUNS SUCK AT KILLING PEOPLE PERIOD.

remember not everybody is an all talk no go on the internet. Ive read count less articles, talked with ballistic experts, talked to more been there done that guys that have shot numerous people with almost every kinds of calibers there are. and you know what... for the most part they all carry 9mm's hmmmm some would call that a clue.

But I encourage you to not take my word for it. do your own research. cause ive done mine ;)
 
#19 · (Edited)
Wasn't the FBI the reason that the .40 was even developed? After the 10mm they initially wanted turned out too strong for most agents? Seems only right to go to what the military has been using.... Personally, I prefer a .45 but I know that not everyone can shoot a .45 effectively.

To me, it seems that LEO should just swallow the pill that the military has done their research on and save the taxpayers a little money.

My .02
 
#20 ·
It was mainly devloped to replace the 10mm round.

after the 86 shootout they started testing rounds. They started testing the 10mm and then asked S&W to come up with a round that was simular in a smaller case length.

So they developed and fielded a cartridge with almost NO realword data. only what they read on paper.
 
#21 ·
It was mainly devloped to replace the 10mm round.

after the 86 shootout they started testing rounds. They started testing the 10mm and then asked S&W to come up with a round that was simular in a smaller case length.

So they developed and fielded a cartridge with almost NO realword data. only what they read on paper.
Which is one of the reasons I couldn't pull the trigger on a Glock 22 that I was considering getting. Just not enough of a better round to convince me to use it.

That's why I have a 19 and a 30. Not to say the .40 doesn't have a niche'.... It just doesn't have one with me.
 
#22 ·
I have yet to see, with modern defense ammo, where a .40cal does anything better for most LEO's and CIV than a 9mm.

Its that american "bigger is better" mantality. Without doing proper research how do you know. Most people will talk but have very little to back it up. especially on the internet.

The fact of the matter is all three common defense rounds suck at killing people, period. even the all powerfull .45 that is suposed to make peopl vaporize. They all do.

The wound cavity of all three suck. You want a wound cavity use a 12 gauge slug.

You have to start looking outside of just the hole that is produced.
 
#32 ·
I have yet to see, with modern defense ammo, where a .40cal does anything better for most LEO's and CIV than a 9mm.

Its that american "bigger is better" mantality. Without doing proper research how do you know. Most people will talk but have very little to back it up. especially on the internet.

The fact of the matter is all three common defense rounds suck at killing people, period. even the all powerfull .45 that is suposed to make peopl vaporize. They all do.

The wound cavity of all three suck. You want a wound cavity use a 12 gauge slug.

You have to start looking outside of just the hole that is produced.
Here is an interesting video:

9mm vs .45---AGAIN!!! by Gomez-Training.com - YouTube

This video is a little wordy, however, he has a couple of great points:
1) Handguns suck for killing people.
2) Since we can't carry our ARs or AKs etc., we have to carry hanguns. He illustrates that all mordern handgun ammunition is designed to penetrate to the same depth, regardless of caliber.

I'm no expert and hate caliber wars, but I really liked his explanation of the reality of handgun ammunition.
 
#23 ·
That's why I have a Mosin Nagant. 7.62x54 is definitely going to stop most of what you hit with it. The 5.56 isn't quite the round of the 7.62, but given the right type of ammo it will get the job done. I have a M15 for that job. With some great ammo....

When I'm down to using my sidearm, I'd rather have the largest, most powerful round. That would typically be a 10mm if I wanted to use a Glock. Unfortunately 10mm ammo isn't as available as .45. So I went with the .45. Using a good JHP I am certain I'll be able to stop what I need, just not as effectively. My preference of course.
 
#26 ·
we are not talking about ball ammo. when shooting FMJ that does not expand there are different things to consider than with modern JHP.

Modern 9mm JHP will expand to the point of making the arguement of 9mm, .40cal, .45 cal a very moot arguement
 
#25 ·
The temparary wound cavity produced by most pistol rounds rarely exceeds 10 times the diameter of the bullet

That means for:

9mm- roughy 3.57 inches

.40 cal- 4.0 inches

.45 cal- 4.5 inches

Thats less than an inch between 9mm and .45. and less than .50 inches between 9mm and .40 cal. And remember the temperary wound cavity is just displacement of soft tissue. tha cavity will close and go back to normal.

There is two mechanisms working on a handgun wound. The cruch mechanism and the stretch mechanism. The crush mechinism being the actual tearing and damage to the tissue. The Stretch being the temparary tissue that is displaced buy only very very minimal damage being done to the body, if at all.

So what is doing the damage is the crush factor of the bullet, the actuall vessels sheared, organs tore through ect. and the expansion of the 3 typical SD rounds do not expand at a degree given to give any of them an edge over the other.

so once again, out side of the hole created ( which is simular across the calibers) what does your caliber choice give you or take away from you?
"
 
#29 ·
Don't know if you have "The Outdoor Channel" in your area... It has a show called "Shooting Gallery" with Michael Bane that covers many different angles of shooting... Last week the entire show was on terminal ballistics for self defense... They shot almost every caliber in existence into ballistic gelatin and through walls framed with dry wall... It was an interesting show...

They came to the conclusion that modern 9mm, .40, and .45 JHP were all very similar from a self defense aspect... They seemed to like the Cor-Bon DPX rounds... Their number one self defense weapon was a shotgun... The only problem with the shotgun was that it shot clean through interior walls... Shotgun actually penetrated much further than an AR-15? I guess the 5.56mm round started to tumble as soon as it hit the drywall...
 
#31 · (Edited)
Don't know if you have "The Outdoor Channel" in your area... It has a show called "Shooting Gallery" with Michael Bane that covers many different angles of shooting... Last week the entire show was on terminal ballistics for self defense... They shot almost every caliber in existence into ballistic gelatin and through walls framed with dry wall... It was an interesting show...

They came to the conclusion that modern 9mm, .40, and .45 JHP were all very similar from a self defense aspect... They seemed to like the Cor-Bon DPX rounds... Their number one self defense weapon was a shotgun... The only problem with the shotgun was that it shot clean through interior walls... Shotgun actually penetrated much further than an AR-15? I guess the 5.56mm round started to tumble as soon as it hit the drywall...
Oddly enough I dont watch TV. maybe an hour a week and its usually music while im answering student emails lol

yes all three are very simular, thats my point...what other than ballistics does your ammo take away or give you?

Yes for overpenetration for home yes a 55 gr hornaday tap 5.56 is generally best

Unless you consider that they make .45 caliber in JHP as well. Spreads the gap back open..... I prefer the .45 but I see nothing wrong with the 9mm being used for SD. Especially if you have quality JHP ammo. It's all preference to me anyway. I can handle a .45 just fine and I can afford to practice with one as well as use high performance JHP for SD. 11 rounds in the pistol and 20 more on my hip. Probably overkill, but I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

Back to the OP, I for one think it's a fine idea for the FBI to switch from the .40 to the 9mm. All of the agents will have the ability to shoot the rounds more effectively, it'll cost the tax payers less to keep them trained, and the 19 and 17 are fine weapons for LEO. Thumbs up from me sir!
9mm Federal HydraShok JHP 124 gr +P+ expansion of 0.67 penetration of 13.4 inches

.40 cal Federal HydraShok JHP 155 expansion 0.68 in penetration 13.3 inches

.45 Federal HydraShok JHP 230 gr expansion of 0.78 in penetration of 12 inches
-------

9mm Remington Golden Saber JHP (147gr) expansion of of 0.62 in penetration of 14.5 in

.40 cal Remington Golden Saber JHP 165 expansion 0.68 penetration 12.0 in

.45 Remington Golden Saber JHP (230 gr) expansion 0.75 in- penetration 14.3 in

many agencies use the .40 cal-

Winchester Ranger SXT 180 expansion 0.72 inches penetration 13.0 inches

penetration is damn near the same and does anyone really think that .10 inches of expansion is really going to do much more damage?

wheres this huge difference in caliber?
to quote the FBI's " Handgun wounding factorsand effectivness"

"Psychological factors such as energy deposit, momentum transfer, size of temparary cavity, or calculations suchas RII are irrelevant or erroneous. The impact of the bullet upon the body is no more than the recoil of the weapon. The ratio of the mass to targetis to extreme"
 
#37 ·
If a larger hole/ cavity isn't an issue, why'd they make a JHP round to begin with?

My opinion, with a fine education (physics and chemistry)and real world experience tells me that force is relevant to weight(mass) and speed. So the best possible handgun ammo would have to be +p+ JHP .45. If you can get it in 230 grain that's even better. Now as far as recoil is concerned, that's why the springs are there..... Take those springs away and put your hand behind a bullet. Quite a bit of force. Now consider an explosive blast always follows the path of least resistance. Now how much force are we talking..... I've taken classes to obtain a degree that allows me to hold an RN license. This has allowed me to see that ballistics gel, while better than a jug of water, is nothing like the human body. The force of the bullet is the most important thing IMHO. It's what matters when you don't penetrate a vital organ. It causes damage regardless.

I know I probably won't change anyone's mind that a 9mm is just as effective as a .45 all things equal, but that's not what I'm trying to accomplish. I'm just giving my insight into the situation. My educated and experienced opinion is that the .45 is better than a 9mm at its effectiveness as a SD round. Not that the 9mm is ineffective mind you. It certainly is.
 
#39 ·
I spent 14 years as a Paramedic and saw it all first hand. I could postulate all kinds of information and it would mean nothing to the next person who has their own set of beliefs. Outside of shooting a "fresh cadaver" and doing a post mortum on the spot it still would mean nothing because someone would then say " well they were already dead so blood was not circulating and the muscle tissue was not profused and the etc, etc, etc......."

There are lots of professionals in the ballistics field with LOTS of impressive credentials that give expert testimony in courts of law about a bullets impact on a body. Some of them even work for the same companies that produce the rounds we discuss.

Bottom line, the gel has a viscosity that "most resembles" that of a profusing, normally muscled human. It was based years ago on information supplied by the medical community and in order for it to have any validity it is made by a formula to achieve that viscosity every time. People drive Fords, Chevys, or Volvos because they each have their own set of beliefs on that brand and thusly the bullet makers depend on that same set of beliefs to sell their products. Are some better than others; absolutely. A JHP IS better than a "ball" round and it goes on and on and on. As long as we are people we will have the great debate.....but all that said.....mine IS bigger.
 
#40 · (Edited)
Like I said, of you come across relevant information post it up.

I'm sorry but 100 years as a paramedic won't sway me from the experts in the field and doctors that actually work on humans that have been shoot internally.

Ive put hundreds of occlusive dressings on stab wounds, but I would be the last to try to talk informatively about the internal effects of a stabbing.

Being a paramedic how many autopsies have you done on how many different calibers? If you want to talk about treating gunshot wounds trust me I'm all ears.

For gunshot ballistics and effects I think I'll stick to the expert doctors in the field and forensic pathologists.

The fact that you come with,"mine it's bigger" as an arguement proves you're driving far outside your lane.

Once again please feel free to actually post up any relevent citations feel free.
 
#42 ·
Apparently there was a few people that have gotten butt hurt from some of the things Ive said in this thread.

So everyone knows where im coming from:

First, I'm reminded of this quote, "The business of gun fighting is far to serious than to be ruthlessly critical of yourself and others."

I take that to heart. Shooting other humans that are trying to kill you is a very serious topic. All to many people start throwing out personal opinions without regard. You need to realize that the information you give may be what gets someone home at the end of the day. On the other side of the coin, it may be information that gets someone killed.

If you cant back up what your saying with facts, first hand experience, or at least logical reasoning than you may want to seriously think about what your telling people. There are always people that know more than you. I talk weekly with guys that have forgotten way more than i'll probably ever know. Do I argue with them? no. I might ask questions but I dont argue. I learn. It can only help me and make me a better shooter.

I have dedicated thousands of hours and dollars training with most of the top trainers, spend hundreds of hours reading ballistic reports, talking to doctors and pathologists and other experts in the field. Does that make me better than anyone? Absolutely not. Does that make me educated in this topic. More than some, less than others. But I will back up what I say with facts, expert reports or first hand experience. I very much encourage you to do the same.

If you come in a thread I start and start giving your opinion im going to ask why you believe that, IM going to ask for you to back it up just as I would. If you can great carry on. If you cant... than I and others should be skeptical about that information. Especially when it goes against what almost every expert in the field is saying.

Sorry If I come off as an ass. lol, well to a point. Im passionate about this topic and have dedicated much to it. I dont get angry and pound on my keyboard, I dont take anything personal let alone an internet forum, and have no personal issue with anyone here or on any other board. Im sorry if my posts come of as angry and hate filled, they really are not.

The internet is a great resource, and there are many people here that have experience and knowledge. ask questions an learn from those people it will make you better. But do your self a favor, stay in your lane. If you've never shot in low/no light and are trying to discuss the topic you'd better have done the research and back up what you say. If not let the people that have done it frequently answer the questions. Once again learn something.

Anyways, back to your regularly scheduled caliber debate...
 
#43 ·
I don't see you as an a$$. I see someone who holds his own belief. A little brash for some people's taste maybe, but I have thick skin. I for one am glad to have this discussion with you. I wouldn't give it a second thought.....

Now, you never answered my question, why'd they make a JHP round in 9mm if bullet diameter doesn't matter all that much?
 
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