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Discussion Starter · #42 ·
Apparently there was a few people that have gotten butt hurt from some of the things Ive said in this thread.

So everyone knows where im coming from:

First, I'm reminded of this quote, "The business of gun fighting is far to serious than to be ruthlessly critical of yourself and others."

I take that to heart. Shooting other humans that are trying to kill you is a very serious topic. All to many people start throwing out personal opinions without regard. You need to realize that the information you give may be what gets someone home at the end of the day. On the other side of the coin, it may be information that gets someone killed.

If you cant back up what your saying with facts, first hand experience, or at least logical reasoning than you may want to seriously think about what your telling people. There are always people that know more than you. I talk weekly with guys that have forgotten way more than i'll probably ever know. Do I argue with them? no. I might ask questions but I dont argue. I learn. It can only help me and make me a better shooter.

I have dedicated thousands of hours and dollars training with most of the top trainers, spend hundreds of hours reading ballistic reports, talking to doctors and pathologists and other experts in the field. Does that make me better than anyone? Absolutely not. Does that make me educated in this topic. More than some, less than others. But I will back up what I say with facts, expert reports or first hand experience. I very much encourage you to do the same.

If you come in a thread I start and start giving your opinion im going to ask why you believe that, IM going to ask for you to back it up just as I would. If you can great carry on. If you cant... than I and others should be skeptical about that information. Especially when it goes against what almost every expert in the field is saying.

Sorry If I come off as an ass. lol, well to a point. Im passionate about this topic and have dedicated much to it. I dont get angry and pound on my keyboard, I dont take anything personal let alone an internet forum, and have no personal issue with anyone here or on any other board. Im sorry if my posts come of as angry and hate filled, they really are not.

The internet is a great resource, and there are many people here that have experience and knowledge. ask questions an learn from those people it will make you better. But do your self a favor, stay in your lane. If you've never shot in low/no light and are trying to discuss the topic you'd better have done the research and back up what you say. If not let the people that have done it frequently answer the questions. Once again learn something.

Anyways, back to your regularly scheduled caliber debate...
 

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I don't see you as an a$$. I see someone who holds his own belief. A little brash for some people's taste maybe, but I have thick skin. I for one am glad to have this discussion with you. I wouldn't give it a second thought.....

Now, you never answered my question, why'd they make a JHP round in 9mm if bullet diameter doesn't matter all that much?
 

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You came off a bit douchey when not completely necessary. And by your standards it wouldn't matter what you used so they're all the same (9/40/45) so defending that point to an extreme was again, unnecessary. Also, the stab at Oklahoma and the paramedic comments, stay in your lane comments, all the same.

But whatever, you're just words on a screen.
 

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Amazing how discussions of different calibers always bring up deep seated personal feelings... Let's keep the good discussion going and lower some of the personal finger pointing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #46 ·
Its no that bullet Diameter doesnt matter. It does.. to a point. Obviously the larger wound channel we can create, the more likely we are to hit a vital organ, blood vessel, CNS component ect.

you create a JHP round becuase you get a bigger wound with the same size caliber, with the same recoil.

What I And others are trying to get people to realize is with modern day ammunition, the difference in wound channels between the 3 are very minimal. Is that very very slight difference worth, lower round counts, higher recoil, less time on target and slower follow up shots? To many, including myself, it doesn't.

It rather have faster shots, more rounds, and less reloads than having just .10 of in inch bigger bullet expansion with a bigger caliber.

At the end of the day the choice is yours. Look at the information objectively. Put aside what you think you know, what the latest gun rag or gun store lacky told you, do your own research, be willing tobe man enough to admit that you may not know everyting, talk to those that have done the research and make an EDUCATED decision.
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 ·
You came off a bit douchey when not completely necessary. And by your standards it wouldn't matter what you used so they're all the same (9/40/45) so defending that point to an extreme was again, unnecessary. Also, the stab at Oklahoma and the paramedic comments, stay in your lane comments, all the same.

But whatever, you're just words on a screen.
ok maybe im not being clear and for that i apologize. Your right they all perform almost the same. My point is not that the 9mm is BETTER than any other at killing people. My point is they all suck pretty much the same.

The point im trying to make is once you see that they all suck the same, what are the down sides of carrying a .40 or .45 over a 9mm. Like lower round counts, higher recoil, more reloads ect. Why would we put ourselves behind the curve for no reason? Thats the point im trying to make.

As far as Oklahoma goes. I stand by what I said one hundred percent. If you are going to use first hand experience to back up what you are saying... it HAS to be relevant. I have numerous friends that are medics in the military, Paramedics in two of the "top ten" most dangerous cities in America. They deal with gunshot wounds all the time. They are some of my greatest resources in trauma care. But NONE of them will try to tell you about internal wound ballistics. Because they dont deal with it. You could say, I've seen someone shot with a 9mm and they barely bled. and i've seen someone shot with a .45 and they bled out in seconds. Is that definitive proof that the .45 is a better caliber? No, not if the 9mm didnt hit anythign vital and the .45 severed a femoral.

I have the utmost respect for MIL,LEO, EMTs ect but when trying to use your background to back up what you say, you do need to stay in your lane.

Im sorry if it came of douchy, but its true.
 

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So, after all three rounds/calibers are adjusted to reach the required ballistic gelatin depth (i.e., the same depth/penetration)... I wonder how much difference in recoil there actually is?
 

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Discussion Starter · #49 ·
same as there always is between them. Different pressures are needed to get different size and weight projectiles to penetrate the same distance. Of all three calibers that meet or exceed the two main tests. 9mm will always be far less recoil than the other two. (considering the size and weight of the guns are the same)
 

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OK, a butt full here. I ask every single person to read word for word what I said. Look closely and see if I was stating that I was any type of authority. I stated my background, period. I stated that there could and would always be controversy on this subject. And, I even supported Mr. KeithD in his defense of the use of gel. I have learned one thing in 62 years......there will always be someone who has a chip on their shoulder and has to prove to everyone that they are the only one who is correct. Keith as far as my "lane" grow up, all people need to do is read the threads and see how you have treated MANY others. I learned in 1967-68, it proves nothing to talk about the shit you would rather forget. I have nothing to "prove", so knock yourself out.

Semper Fi
 

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Discussion Starter · #51 · (Edited)
Your completely right Oklahoma. After reading your comments I think I miss read your comment as scrubbers. after he posted what he did.

My apologies for miss reading who that post came from. thats my bad.

See, I can admit when im wrong... no chip on any shoulders ;)


as far as always being right. thats not it at all. If anyone brings different documented information from a reputable authority im more than willing to read it. I keep an open mind and am always willing to learn more and change how i do things if it makes me better.
 

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As far as experience goes, I am a VA EMT, NC Paramedic and RN, served in our great army during combat in a combat MOS with a secondary job of combat lifesaver, I've worked with metal in fabrication of frames and exhaust in my hobby and as a secondary job to get through college. Not that anyone cares cause I could be lying since y'all don't know me from a terd in the woods. I say one thing, you say another. I've not only agreed with you about the 9mm being effective, but I tried to have your back a little so we can continue our objective discussion.

Looking at it now, it is plain to me that you come off a bit too defensive. No one here is really arguing that your point isn't correct. We aren't even trying to disprove you and your tests. I for one have implied that it is great to have someone doing these things. I've given you props so to speak. All me and some others have said is that we prefer what we use because it has proven to US to be the round for US. Am I right?

Now, as far as guns go, I have 2 9mm Glocks, and 1 .45 Glock. I also have an M15 and a Mosin Nagant. I have many hours on each. I am a size able man that can handle any one of them all day long and I have. I have seen numerous war injuries as well as being a casualty myself. I have also seen many gunshot calls while performing my duties on an ambulance. Guess what...... None of these can be a true indication of what round works best for everyone. Do you know why? Cause no one is the same..... No situation is alike. The one true thing I have seen in everything I've done my entire life and it is proven and will never ever leave my belief is that the harder you hit someone, the better. So the harder you hit someone wether if it's with a 9mm or .45 or 223, or what have you, the more likelihood of them going down. Pending shot placement of course. Plain and simple.

No one is calling you out, chief. Relax, if you didn't want a discussion, maybe you should have wrote a paper on your findings and posted it on your fridge.
 

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Discussion Starter · #53 ·
As far as experience goes, I am a VA EMT, NC Paramedic and RN, served in our great army during combat in a combat MOS with a secondary job of combat lifesaver, I've worked with metal in fabrication of frames and exhaust in my hobby and as a secondary job to get through college. Not that anyone cares cause I could be lying since y'all don't know me from a terd in the woods. I say one thing, you say another. I've not only agreed with you about the 9mm being effective, but I tried to have your back a little so we can continue our objective discussion.

Looking at it now, it is plain to me that you come off a bit too defensive. No one here is really arguing that your point isn't correct. We aren't even trying to disprove you and your tests. I for one have implied that it is great to have someone doing these things. I've given you props so to speak. All me and some others have said is that we prefer what we use because it has proven to US to be the round for US. Am I right?

Now, as far as guns go, I have 2 9mm Glocks, and 1 .45 Glock. I also have an M15 and a Mosin Nagant. I have many hours on each. I am a size able man that can handle any one of them all day long and I have. I have seen numerous war injuries as well as being a casualty myself. I have also seen many gunshot calls while performing my duties on an ambulance. Guess what...... None of these can be a true indication of what round works best for everyone. Do you know why? Cause no one is the same..... No situation is alike. The one true thing I have seen in everything I've done my entire life and it is proven and will never ever leave my belief is that the harder you hit someone, the better. So the harder you hit someone wether if it's with a 9mm or .45 or 223, or what have you, the more likelihood of them going down. Pending shot placement of course. Plain and simple.

No one is calling you out, chief. Relax, if you didn't want a discussion, maybe you should have wrote a paper on your findings and posted it on your fridge.
thank you for your service. and trust me, once again, im very calm. Deff dont get worked up over a internet forum post.

And I agree with you on the gunshot calls...as I said before... a few times they are no indication of wound ballistics.

As far as "hitting someone hard" it is true when talking across the board for a wide range of calibers. the point being that when you narrow it down to the 3 most common calibers, force isnt there, and they dont have only a slight difference between the three.

What most people consider as "knock down power" just isnt there with those calibers. its just not. and you even said... pending shot placement. That is whats important. shot placement and penetration.
 

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How about them <insert favorite baseball team here>....
 

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Keith, thank you; I as well believe in facts, and know that a persons beliefs indeed illustrate how deeply they care.

Be SAFE.....Shoot WELL
 

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I'll have to ask my FBI buddy. Last time I talked to him, he still had his G23, and mentioned nothing about a 9mm.
 
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