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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Why? That seems counter productive. Unless its a cost issue, I can't imagine why they would.
There testing and showing almost no difference in effectiveness in shooting people

Agents are more accurate, better qual times, less recoil, less time off target.

the benifits gained by a 40 are very very few. while the down sides are many. From what im hearing they are finally realizing what a lot of people in the industry have known
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I imagine they will release something before hand. Like I said this is just rumor on the street from a few people in the know. but people I fully trust
 

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Interesting, but still a bit surprising... They already moved from 10mm to .40...

I've heard that an increased emphasis on round count is also part of the reason...
 

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So instead of the 23 and 22, they'll be sporting a 19 or 17? Didn't they just acquire the 23 not long ago? Seems like they have a lot of tax money to be playing around with in these uncertain times......
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
So instead of the 23 and 22, they'll be sporting a 19 or 17? Didn't they just acquire the 23 not long ago? Seems like they have a lot of tax money to be playing around with in these uncertain times......
Money doesnt mean anything. hell our department traded in at least 400 plus gen 3 22's for gen 4's and there wasnt anythign wrong with the ones we had. some were still new in box.
 

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There testing and showing almost no difference in effectiveness in shooting people

Agents are more accurate, better qual times, less recoil, less time off target.

the benifits gained by a 40 are very very few. while the down sides are many. From what im hearing they are finally realizing what a lot of people in the industry have known
THIS is what I've been trying to tell you .40 lovers for a long time....

:)
 

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THIS is what I've been trying to tell you .40 lovers for a long time....

:)
Yes, but..

Heavier grain moving at same velocity is better for barrier penetration. Something we may not care much of, but a Agent thinks something of it when a BG is taking cover and still firing.

But I'd agree to a point that just contact distance, one doesn't really stand above the other.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Yes, but..

Heavier grain moving at same velocity is better for barrier penetration. Something we may not care much of, but a Agent thinks something of it when a BG is taking cover and still firing.

But I'd agree to a point that just contact distance, one doesn't really stand above the other.
The minimal difference of penetration between the two doesnt out weigh the many benifits of the 9mm round.

The .40 Cal is a solution looking for a problem.
 

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The minimal difference of penetration between the two doesnt out weigh the many benifits of the 9mm round.

The .40 Cal is a solution looking for a problem.
Don't be silly..
 

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Benefits: more capacity :usually 1 in a same sized firearm. Pretty small deciding factor.

Price: to train with anyway: SD ammo is mostly the same price between the two

Drawbacks of 9mm:
Barrier penetration: light weight, less penetration through glass, cinder block, you name it. In the FBI line of work- Huge

Size expanded: lesser

Ft/Lbs of energy: lesser, thus less energy transferred into BG to incapacitate

To say the 9mm is better or equal all around is just.. Wrong. You can't deny a .40 and .45 hurt more the same way you can't say a toothpick hurts the same to be stabbed with as an ice pick

Also, shot placement won't come down to the round, it comes down to the shooter. Don't give me the "9mm is easier to follow up with" because without training you won't follow up with anything, .40 or 9.

The reason the .45 was and is so successful even at much lower velocity than a 9mm is due to weight, an all too important factor. You'll tell the difference between a bus hitting you doing sixty and a miata hitting you doing 80. And weight is on the .40 side.

There wasn't just "some idiot" picking the FBI's next carry round when they chose the .40 so to say the .40 was a "solution looking for a problem" is well.. wrong.

I already admitted I like the 9, my wife carries a 9.. The 9 is a good round, but the only reason I can see the FBI adopting it is because
1)it's cheaper- times are hard
2)they're not shooting through things like they were (when the .40 was adopted from the 10mm when the police were outgunned in the Miami shoot out)

You made a point to say the .40 fills a niche that didn't exist, thus, rendering it a useless cartridge... Well not too many people can agree with that. The FBI sure didn't for years.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Benefits: more capacity :usually 1 in a same sized firearm. Pretty small deciding factor.

common sense tells me that the more rounds I have the better of i am. Less chance of a reload understress, less chance of fumbling a mag, less time out of the fight, and more situations I can deal with. whether thats one round, 3 rounds or 5 rounds. Rounds are rounds. and when you are in a gun fight... they save Lives

Price: to train with anyway: SD ammo is mostly the same price between the two

Your right. Im buying 9mm rounds for 150 a case right now. far less than .40's. I can train more. Which means I become more profficient at getting good hits faster. The most important thing.

Drawbacks of 9mm:
Barrier penetration: light weight, less penetration through glass, cinder block, you name it. In the FBI line of work- Huge

have you personally shot 9mm rounds and .40 rounds through glass? what were your results? I have. and mine through both automotive glass and residential window glass showed almost no difference. but id love to hear your first hand expereince.

Size expanded: lesser

how much more do you thing a .40 projectile expands than a roughly .357 inch projectile? ha WAY more? no not quite. I suggest you do some reading by Doc Roberts, one of the most respect names in ballistic research.

Ft/Lbs of energy: lesser, thus less energy transferred into BG to incapacitate

neither 9mm, .40cal, or .45 have enough kinetic energy to accomplish instant incompacitation all the time. out side of a solid CNS shot. all three suck at killing people period. the permenant wound cavity created by those three calibers is minimal in the world of firearms.

To say the 9mm is better or equal all around is just.. Wrong. You can't deny a .40 and .45 hurt more the same way you can't say a toothpick hurts the same to be stabbed with as an ice pick

explain how its wrong? im not saying that the .40 is a BAD caliber. im simply stating it does very few things better than the 9mm. and what it does is only marginally better.

Also, shot placement won't come down to the round, it comes down to the shooter. Don't give me the "9mm is easier to follow up with" because without training you won't follow up with anything, .40 or 9.

Dont even know how to respond to that. Its physics less recoill = less recoild to manage= less time off target... how can you argue with that? your telling my you can keep a .45 on target just as welll as a .22? nope dont think so. and your right it comes with time and training. and with lower cost ammo you can train more and lessen the time it takes to get there

The reason the .45 was and is so successful even at much lower velocity than a 9mm is due to weight, an all too important factor. You'll tell the difference between a bus hitting you doing sixty and a miata hitting you doing 80. And weight is on the .40 side.

Correct to a point. the different in weight between a 147 gr and 230 grain bullet is a big difference. But how much difference do you really thing there is in kenetic energy transfer between a 147 gr bullet and a 160-180 gr bullet? really? you think theres that much to make a noticable difference? once again I refer you to do some research on ballistics and shootings

As far as the bus vs miata arguement? really? you think the differenct in .043 of an inch and 20-30 grs is the same as comparing a bus to a compact sports car? try again.


There wasn't just "some idiot" picking the FBI's next carry round when they chose the .40 so to say the .40 was a "solution looking for a problem" is well.. wrong.

Actually what you seen was a lot of agency witching over to the 40 based on what they were seeing on paper. there was little ballistic evidence at the time to make an actuall hard use educated opinion on it. what your finding now after years of data coming in from around the world involving the .40 cal in shootings is that it does not perform to the huge standard that people like your self think it does. hence agencies heavily considering going to the 9mm for the benifits out side of the marginal difference of what size hole it pokes.



I already admitted I like the 9, my wife carries a 9.. The 9 is a good round, but the only reason I can see the FBI adopting it is because
1)it's cheaper- times are hard
2)they're not shooting through things like they were (when the .40 was adopted from the 10mm when the police were outgunned in the Miami shoot out)

How many times do you think the FBI is going to sit there with their .40 cal pistols and shoot through s cinder block wall? c'mon man.

Durring the miami shoot out there were officers with shotguns, 9mm's and .357's
so saying they were out gun would also have to include the shotuns and .357's. But had they had the magical .40 cal ammo all would hve been well? riiiiiight

You made a point to say the .40 fills a niche that didn't exist, thus, rendering it a useless cartridge... Well not too many people can agree with that. The FBI sure didn't for years.
Well first off i never said it was a useless caliber. just a caliber that doesnt fill a role any better than what is out there.

The funny thing is that you are using the arguement that the FBI used it so it had to be good. but when they do more research and testing and find out that it isnt performing better than any other pistol caliber all of a sudden they are just money driven. LMAO.

remember balistic geletin isnt human. it doesnt have working systems. a brain that had enough oxygen to continue to fight for 15-20 sec after the heart has been blown out. Thats where most people on the internet are mistaken. they look at expansion size (which there is barely a difference) and slight penetration differences and go WOW that must work sooooo much better! but they forget that the human body is strong as hell. Bullets bounce off skulls, people have taken multiple hits from 9mm, .40cal, and .45 and still lived. there are no deffinites, HANDGUNS SUCK AT KILLING PEOPLE PERIOD.

remember not everybody is an all talk no go on the internet. Ive read count less articles, talked with ballistic experts, talked to more been there done that guys that have shot numerous people with almost every kinds of calibers there are. and you know what... for the most part they all carry 9mm's hmmmm some would call that a clue.

But I encourage you to not take my word for it. do your own research. cause ive done mine ;)
 

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Wasn't the FBI the reason that the .40 was even developed? After the 10mm they initially wanted turned out too strong for most agents? Seems only right to go to what the military has been using.... Personally, I prefer a .45 but I know that not everyone can shoot a .45 effectively.

To me, it seems that LEO should just swallow the pill that the military has done their research on and save the taxpayers a little money.

My .02
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
It was mainly devloped to replace the 10mm round.

after the 86 shootout they started testing rounds. They started testing the 10mm and then asked S&W to come up with a round that was simular in a smaller case length.

So they developed and fielded a cartridge with almost NO realword data. only what they read on paper.
 
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