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Hey all, Have read everything I can find about expanding vs fragmenting and still not sure which way to go...

As far as personal defense use, I am concerned about this big 10mm rounds and over penetration. Living in Arizona, I'm not REAL concerned about thick clothing "plugging" the hollow point and not expanding correctly. I have read about plastic or rubber tips that are immune to this condition. And then again, there's fragmenting slugs which ...I'm just not sure which are safest...don't want to worry about a miss in the dark that gets the neighbors house.

So, I'm looking for some expert comments here...in the field experience. I know an exterior wall will stop a frag round. Is it still good enough penetration?

Help Please!

Thanks to all in advance for lending your advice and time!

Slowdraw
 

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Finding a happy middle ground is difficult to do. There are sights out there dedicated to testing ammo. Here is a link to one. If you haven't been there yet go check out different results for yourself. I know they have tested Extreme Shock and others.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/
 

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Hey SlowDraw! Great question. Been wanting to ask this myself but you beat me to it. I know we've got some guys here that could really tackle good answers to this one. Don? SF? jlweams? We need some dissertation on this. Thanks from me also for this one

GN
 

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Hi slowdraw--

Welcome to the forum. I've been researching this as well since I live in an apartment complex. My own 0.02 is that the expanding rounds such as hollow points would reduce the chances of over-penetration. Frangible rounds, which I think are the same as the fragmenting rounds you're mentioning, concern me a little because they run the risk of under penetration, leading to a less-than-lethal strike.
 

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Here is a direct link to a extreme shock test they did. Not very impressive when one is worried about over penetration or enough penetration on a potential bad guy. Like I said lots of different ammo tested there and lots of info. Take it for what it is worth, and what you paid for it. Should get you on the right path though

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot23.htm
 

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Just noticed you in Tucson. I was stationed at DM for awhile. Not a bad area. I remember going into Tombstone and seeing 4 people there from back home. Seriously 4 and they hadn't came down together either. A few I hadn't seen in years it was a nice time. Oh well, back on track now
 
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Here is a direct link to a extreme shock test they did. Not very impressive when one is worried about over penetration or enough penetration on a potential bad guy. Like I said lots of different ammo tested there and lots of info. Take it for what it is worth, and what you paid for it. Should get you on the right path though

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot23.htm
Superb find SF! Just the test I've personnaly been looking for. Many Thanks! SlowDraw, if you havn't already, check this one!

Now, both SlowDraw and I are shooting 10MMs ...All I've shot through my 10 so far is 180 grn federal FMJs. HOW MUCH more real penetration is the 10 going to have as opposed to the 9MM in the test? Frangebles be ok considering?

GN
 

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Thats what we are here for
 

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Real good info there...followed down some of the reference links they list for sources and my mind was swimming with info!

Take me a few days of good reading to absorb it :) Thanks much guys! Good stuff
Some of the info is a little old but the ammo tested is still widely available. So it is still good info for someone looking into ballistics. To answer the whole Frangible ammo topic with two sentences I will say I don't like them. I have yet to find any that I felt comfortable in fragmenting and penetrating. But that is my opinion and again take it for what it cost.
 

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Penetration and bullet placement over any "magic" bullet configuration. My favorite defense load was one of my own.... 230 grain Hornady FMJ conical over as much Unique I could pack in the case without blowing out the primer. I wanted through and through penetration. Two holes, no waiting.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Thanks to all of you that had given me such great web sights to look at in regards to my question about my 10 mm and the over penetration issues that have concerned me sense Ive owned this new Glock of mine . I was up for hours checking out all the information available on this issue . Great response and much appreciated - this is such a great sight - thanks again .
 

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Thanks to all of you that had given me such great web sights to look at in regards to my question about my 10 mm and the over penetration issues that have concerned me sense Ive owned this new Glock of mine . I was up for hours checking out all the information available on this issue . Great response and much appreciated - this is such a great sight - thanks again .
Glad I could keep you out of bed. Who needs sleep anyway is how I look at it.
 

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There is so much to terminal ballistics. I've been looking into it for a long time and still have only a basic grasp of the subject.

We don't use magic fragmenting bullets on animals when we hunt. Why would I use such a bullet when my life is on the line? We know what works and the human body has not changed since the first bullet was made.

I decided upon the following long ago:

1) Handgun terminal ballistics suck in comparison to rifle terminal ballistics.
2) In an encounter, I will be liberal in sharing my ammo.
3) Multiple wound channels are better than one because bad guys bleed out faster. This causes them to stop fighting faster. I will continue to be nice and share my bullets with the bad guy if he deserves it. After all, they are $1 apiece.
4) I will shoot as fast as possible while continuing to place the shots on target.
5) I will use JHP ammunition and hope that it expands. If it does not expand, the permanent wound channel will be as large as the mouth of the bullet. If it expands, then the permanent wound channel will be slightly larger. Either way, I will liberally share my bullets with the bad guy!
6) I don't worry about overpenetration. I worry about missing. If a bullet goes through the bad guy, then that's the way it's meant to be. Any bullet that won't penetrate drywall probably won't penetrate a leatherclad crackhead.
7) I will try to consider what is behind the bad guy, but I make no guarantees because the situation could dictate that I have to fight immediately.
8) I do not worry about caliber so long as it's on the list of commonly available calibers considered good for defense. 9x19mm is the lowest I'll go. They're all about the same, which means performance sucks. I will assume failure to stop and be liberal in sharing my ammo until the bad guy no longer deserves it.
9) I don't believe anything I read written by marketing departments or gun writers when it comes to bullet performance.
10) I will use FMJ bullets if that is all that is available. I prefer JHP and flat point ammunition. However, FMJ will do just fine if I do my part.
 

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There is so much to terminal ballistics. I've been looking into it for a long time and still have only a basic grasp of the subject.

We don't use magic fragmenting bullets on animals when we hunt. Why would I use such a bullet when my life is on the line? We know what works and the human body has not changed since the first bullet was made.
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Understanding what you are saying... but to me in my neighborhood environment, key is not having over penetration. I truly would rather be taken out, than to spare my life and be responsible for shooting through someone and injuring the child next door.

This is absolutely why this is such an important issue to me...When hunting, it's a different situation. No neighbors within range.
With the tests I've seen just in this thread, a full charge 10mm goes through LOTS of drywall...hollow point of not.

I need to make a drywall box, take that and some concrete blocks out to the desert next time to test a few of the defense rounds I now have (and haven't yet had time to fire). This will probably be several weeks from now. I will try and photo document the results as best I can to add to this string. My own 10MM is a 29..being a bit shorter than a G20 that my friend has (try to get his too for test), I expect that mine losses a bit of velocity (a possible advantage in home defense if I'm seeing this right) over the longer barreled version.

Anyway, I' be sure and post the results for all!

GN
 

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It is not an "overpenetration" issue if you miss. It seems to me that your real concern is how a bullet behaves when it strikes something other than a human body. Bullets do weird things sometimes and the behavior can change with velocity, bullet weight, construction, shape and so on.

I guess one way to test this would be to shoot ammunition through ballistic gelatin and see how far it goes through your fabricated walls. This may give you an idea of what will happen, though I am not certain it's a good test. Then try it directly against the fabricated wall. There should be some difference and you'll need to do quite a few shots before you have an idea of what will happen.

Use high quality JHP ammo for your gun. That's about the best you can do. Go research the prefragmented ammunition performance...what I have read has shown it's not good (not claiming any expertise here...just a few police after action reports from various sources). One instance comes to mind where the rounds only penetrated a few inches into the bad guy. The attack did not stop.

In the end, it comes down to you shooting well with good ammo.

While you're at it, shoot some meat. Tie it up with string to keep it tight and shoot the end.

I look forward to seeing your test results!
 

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It is not an "overpenetration" issue if you miss. It seems to me that your real concern is how a bullet behaves when it strikes something other than a human body. Bullets do weird things sometimes and the behavior can change with velocity, bullet weight, construction, shape and so on.

I guess one way to test this would be to shoot ammunition through ballistic gelatin and see how far it goes through your fabricated walls. This may give you an idea of what will happen, though I am not certain it's a good test. Then try it directly against the fabricated wall. There should be some difference and you'll need to do quite a few shots before you have an idea of what will happen.

Use high quality JHP ammo for your gun. That's about the best you can do. Go research the prefragmented ammunition performance...what I have read has shown it's not good (not claiming any expertise here...just a few police after action reports from various sources). One instance comes to mind where the rounds only penetrated a few inches into the bad guy. The attack did not stop.

In the end, it comes down to you shooting well with good ammo.

While you're at it, shoot some meat. Tie it up with string to keep it tight and shoot the end.

I look forward to seeing your test results!
Not talking about a miss, though it could happen at night...is anyone SURE a 10mm full load charge (even with a hollow point) might not travel completely through on say, a gut shot? If anyone knows for sure, I'd take much comfort in that...
 

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Not talking about a miss, though it could happen at night...is anyone SURE a 10mm full load charge (even with a hollow point) might not travel completely through on say, a gut shot? If anyone knows for sure, I'd take much comfort in that...
Nothing is sure when it comes to this stuff. There are very few people who are actually able to speak about this topic in any sort of scientific way.

This is why I suggested you put some ballistic gelatin in front of your test walls. At least you'll have an idea of what your carry ammo will do.

Frankly, though, I think you're getting worried over Nth degree "what ifs".

I know there are all these articles in gun magazines and the 'Net about overpenetration. These articles sell expensive ammunition and gun magazines. The actual incidence of this is extremely low. Do some research on this and you'll find the MSM sensationalizes these incidents. If only 20%ish of police bullets actually hit their target, where do the other 80%ish go? Down the street, that's where! (I'd have to dig up the actual stats on police hits but it's quite low).

Just remember, you can do EVERYTHING RIGHT and STILL LOSE. You can win the gun fight in a brilliant way, with every cop and witness swearing up and down you were the good guy, and a prosecutor could still go after you. The jury could convict you. You could zipper the bad guy up and, in his last gasp of life, he fires the luckiest shot in the world and you die...or your kid dies.

If you THINK 10mm is just too much, then swap it out for a Glock 21. 45 ACP is great for defense and there are many reputable self-defense loads available.

The best you can do is be in the right, make solid hits, and have a self-defense lawyer.
 
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