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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Winter, the 8-month rainy season, is coming to Oregon. During the dry season, I do most of my informal target shooting at our gun club's outdoor action pistol ranges, practicing for USPSA matches by shooting Glocks (usually…) at cardboard and steel targets. For those of us not inclined to conduct our informal target shooting while standing in a puddle of water, it's nearly time to move to the indoor ranges for recreation. Luckily, our club has a beautiful indoor .22 rimfire range, so I plan to be spending some time there, banging away at paper targets while remaining dry.

My favorite .22 pistol for informal indoor shooting is the Browning Buck Mark featured in this post. Although I own the Ruger Mk III in a couple of configurations, I prefer the Buck Mark for informal shooting because it is accurate, reliable, and much easier to clean and maintain. You don't need to be a three-handed magician with a keen sense of humor and a knack for problem solving to put this pistol together after stripping it for cleaning, as you do for the Ruger Mk III.

My Buck Mark is the standard model, with a 5.5" barrel, decent adjustable sights, and surprisingly good ambidextrous target grips. It weighs 36.2 ounces empty, and came out of the box with a crisp, clean 3-pound trigger pull. This pistol has received exactly zero modifications or upgrades, I shoot it exactly as it came from the factory, which is something new for me. This model has a matte finish on most parts, with the exception of some nicely executed polishing on the sides of the slab-sided barrel. In my opinion, the Buck Mark is built to a higher standard of fit and finish than is the Ruger Mk III, although the Browning is usually a bit more expensive.

Part of the charm of this pistol, I admit, is the ease with which it can be stripped for cleaning:

1. Make sure the gun is empty; remove the magazine.
2. Remove the two sight base screws and lift the sight base from the frame.
3. Pull the slide back about an inch and lift the recoil rod upward from the slide.
4. Lift the slide from the frame.​

That's it. With the Buck Mark's slide removed, you still can't clean the barrel from the breech with a cleaning rod because a part of the frame obstructs the path of the rod (Buck Mark | World's Largest Supplier of Firearm Accessories, Gun Parts and Gunsmithing Tools - BROWNELLS). You can insert a rod carefully through the muzzle, or you can use a Hoppe's Bore Snake to clean the barrel.

Browning even provides the one hex wrench you need to remove the sight base screws. If you are a compulsive gun cleaner and maintainer, think about how important this simplicity might be to you.

A word of warning is due, however: don't take the grips off without a really good reason. The grips hold some action pins in position just like they do on the Ruger Mk III, and if they fall out you are in for a challenging little reassembly session (see above, "three-handed magician"). This design quirk was apparently inherited from the 1911 and passed on to the Ruger Mk III and the Buck Mark. Since the name of the 1911's designer is on the side of the Buck Mark (that would be one Mr. John M. Browning...), I guess that shouldn't be too much of a surprise.

I have seen the Buck Mark in use in our local steel matches, usually with open sights. If I was to shoot a steel match with an open sight .22, this is the gun I would use.

The Buck Mark does not have a firing pin stop, and after some searching on the web and in the manual I cannot find clear authoritative guidance about dry-firing the Buck Mark, so I don't do it except after cleaning the gun, just to drop the firing pin to take pressure off the spring. By contrast, the Ruger Mk III does have a firing pin stop, and it is safe to dry-fire.

Without further comment, here is the gun:

Buck Mark L.jpg Buck Mark R.jpg Buck Mark Slide Open.jpg
Front Sight.jpg Buck Mark Muzzle.jpg
Rear Sight.jpg Slide Detail.jpg

Chris
 
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I have been thinking about getting a .22 for Steel Challenge for quite a while... The demise of .22 ammunition put me on hold... Thanks for providing info on the two pistols I have been considering (Ruger MkIII and Buck Mark).

Very nice adjustable rear sight... The front sight looks like you could just remove the screw and swap another sight in. Have you ever thought about installing a fiber optic front sight? I'm guessing that they make them. I'm really used to FO front sights.

Thanks for starting another interesting thread!
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
.. The front sight looks like you could just remove the screw and swap another sight in. Have you ever thought about installing a fiber optic front sight? ...
That's right, the front sight comes off easily. I haven't thought about using a fiber optic front sight on this, but if I used it in steel matches I would do that. They are available:

Browning Buckmark Front Sights: MGW
www.dawsonprecision.com SIGHTS FRONT:Browning Buckmark .22 Front Sights Category

For open sight shooting in steel competition (at my level...), this gun would be my preference over the Ruger because it doesn't need any work, right out of the box it is good enough for me. You may be a little more accomplished at steel shooting than I am, however!

Chris
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Important Update: With the Buck Mark's slide removed, you still can't clean the barrel from the breech with a cleaning rod because a part of the frame obstructs the path of the rod (Buck Mark | World's Largest Supplier of Firearm Accessories, Gun Parts and Gunsmithing Tools - BROWNELLS).

You can insert a rod carefully through the muzzle, or you can use a Hoppe's Bore Snake to clean the barrel.

I'm sorry for this error, it has been some time since I've shot the Buck Mark (last winter), so I had forgotten the problem with getting a cleaning rod through the barrel.

The barrel can be dismounted from the frame with one screw, but I have not done that yet and don't plan to because I can clean it well enough with a cleaning rod through the muzzle. That said, it's still a lot easier to strip and clean than the Ruger Mk III.

Chris
 

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What kind of ammunition do you shoot in your BuckMark? For some reason 22's seem to jam a lot when I watch the 22 pistol shooters at a Steel Challenge match. I have some friends that shoot CCI in their Ruger Mark III's, but there are many, many different types of CCI 22LR ammunition...

Curious what you've had the best results with...
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
What kind of ammunition do you shoot in your BuckMark? For some reason 22's seem to jam a lot when I watch the 22 pistol shooters at a Steel Challenge match. I have some friends that shoot CCI in their Ruger Mark III's, but there are many, many different types of CCI 22LR ammunition...

Curious what you've had the best results with...
Prior to the Mosr Recent Ammo Crisis, I used CCI hollow points exclusively. I don't recall the bullet weight or velocity, but I will look it up when I get home later today. I recall that standard velocity target ammo didn't work well, but my memory could be faulty. I will go to the range this week, shoot up a variety of ammo, and report back. Stay tuned.

Chris
 

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Prior to the Mosr Recent Ammo Crisis, I used CCI hollow points exclusively. I don't recall the bullet weight or velocity, but I will look it up when I get home later today. I recall that standard velocity target ammo didn't work well, but my memory could be faulty. I will go to the range this week, shoot up a variety of ammo, and report back. Stay tuned.

Chris
Thanks, Chris...
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
What kind of ammunition do you shoot in your BuckMark? For some reason 22's seem to jam a lot when I watch the 22 pistol shooters at a Steel Challenge match. I have some friends that shoot CCI in their Ruger Mark III's, but there are many, many different types of CCI 22LR ammunition...

Curious what you've had the best results with...
As promised, I ran a quick test with a variety of .22LR ammo this afternoon, the results are tabulated below, sorted in ascending power factor. The test was simple: since I have only two 10-round magazines for this pistol, I loaded each and fired 20 rounds, noting any Failure To Eject (FTE), the most common type of cycling failure for an autoloading .22 Pistol (or rifle, for that matter), in my experience.

For this particular Buck Mark, I could shoot anything but the very low powered Federal Target ammo with one exception, the Winchester USA-marked ammo.

The Federal Target stuff is newly available out here, and it seems like it's probably intended for single-shot rifle shooting. It just doesn't generate enough pressure to operate the simple blow-back design of the Buck Mark slide.

The single FTE with Winchester was using the bulk-packed "USA" branded ammo.

Out here, I see a lot of CCI and Federal Champion used in steel matches, but with the shortage I'm sure that anything that goes "bang" will be found at the ranges.

MakeBullet TypeBullet Weight in GrainsVelocity in FPSPower FactorBrand or DescriptionFTE in 20 Rounds Fired
FederalRound Nose401,08043.20Gold Medal Target7
FederalRound Nose361,26045.36Champion0
CCIHollow Point361,26045.36Mini-Mag™ Varmint0
RemingtonRound Nose401,15046.0022 Target0
RemingtonHollow Point361,28046.08Golden Bullet0
CCIRound Nose401,23549.40Mini-Mag™0
WinchesterHollow Point401,28051.20USA1
WinchesterRound Nose401,30052.00Super Speed RN0

One other thing: I mentioned that the barrel could be removed with one screw, and it can, but it's an interesting looking screw. Don't attempt this without a gunsmith screwdriver that fits the screw perfectly, you may damage it or scratch the pistol;

P1010527.jpg

Chris
 
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As promised, I ran a quick test with a variety of .22LR ammo this afternoon, the results are tabulated below, sorted in ascending power factor. The test was simple: since I have only two 10-round magazines for this pistol, I loaded each and fired 20 rounds, noting any Failure To Eject (FTE), the most common type of cycling failure for an autoloading .22 Pistol (or rifle, for that matter), in my experience.

For this particular Buck Mark, I could shoot anything but the very low powered Federal Target ammo with one exception, the Winchester USA-marked ammo.

The Federal Target stuff is newly available out here, and it seems like it's probably intended for single-shot rifle shooting. It just doesn't generate enough pressure to operate the simple blow-back design of the Buck Mark slide.

The single FTE with Winchester was using the bulk-packed "USA" branded ammo.

Out here, I see a lot of CCI and Federal Champion used in steel matches, but with the shortage I'm sure that anything that goes "bang" will be found at the ranges.

MakeBullet TypeBullet Weight in GrainsVelocity in FPSPower FactorBrand or DescriptionFTE in 20 Rounds Fired
FederalRound Nose401,08043.20Gold Medal Target7
FederalRound Nose361,26045.36Champion0
CCIHollow Point361,26045.36Mini-Mag™ Varmint0
RemingtonRound Nose401,15046.0022 Target0
RemingtonHollow Point361,28046.08Golden Bullet0
CCIRound Nose401,23549.40Mini-Mag™0
WinchesterHollow Point401,28051.20USA1
WinchesterRound Nose401,30052.00Super Speed RN0
Thank you very much! As usual, you have gone way beyond the call of duty in supplying an answer... But I appreciate it... Good information... Makes me wonder if some of the jams I see at our local steel matches could be caused by the Gold Metal Target ammunition. Seven FTEs out of 20 is quite a high percentage.

None of our local Walmart stores have had any 22LR ammunition for a long time. I've heard recently that some of them were getting new shipments 22LR stock in, but I have not been able to find any. May be time to check some of the local gun shops.

One other thing: I mentioned that the barrel could be removed with one screw, and it can, but it's an interesting looking screw. Don't attempt this without a gunsmith screwdriver that fits the screw perfectly, you may damage it or scratch the pistol;

View attachment 5438

Chris
I've never heard of a gunsmith screwdriver... Is this something sold by Browning specifically for the Buckmark? You have piqued my curiosity (once again!) with this comment.

-john
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thank you very much! As usual, you have gone way beyond the call of duty in supplying an answer... But I appreciate it... Good information... Makes me wonder if some of the jams I see at our local steel matches could be caused by the Gold Metal Target ammunition. Seven FTEs out of 20 is quite a high percentage.
You're welcome, it was my pleasure. I was surprised that the Buck Mark would shoot as much of the lower pressure ammo as it did without problems.

The Buck Mark slide seems pretty light to me when compared with the Ruger bolt, making me think the Ruger will probably require different ammo, it might be more fussy. So, I will run the same tests with a Ruger Mk III later this week and will report the results. I'll also weigh the slide and bolt from the two different guns just to see if there's any correlation between FTEs and bolt weight with different ammo.

I've never heard of a gunsmith screwdriver... Is this something sold by Browning specifically for the Buckmark? You have piqued my curiosity (once again!) with this comment...
The Gunsmith Screwdrivers I use have a handle and a set of interchangeable bits, and I use these on ALL guns. These are good to have because you need to have a precise fit of the bit to the screw to avoid damaging gun screws. I believe this is so because gun screws often have to be installed (or removed) with a good deal of pressure, and because the screws are not always hardened (especially on some makes, like Uberti). Having a perfect bit-to-screw fit ensures that you can get the job done without damaging the screw, or having the screwdriver slip off the screw and scratch the gun. Consider the consequences of a screwdriver slipping and scratching a collectible handgun, versus slipping and scratching a two-by-four in your garage, and you begin to understand why the precision fit is needed, and why they can be so expensive.

Here is a selection of sets from Brownells:

MAGNA-TIP SUPER SETS? | Brownells.

Here are more modestly-priced sets from MidwayUSA:

Wheeler Engineering 89-Piece Professional-Plus Gunsmithing Screwdriver

Chapman Model 8900 27-Piece Deluxe Screwdriver Set

Wheeler Engineering 28-Piece Space-Saver Gunsmithing Screwdriver Set

I used the basic Chapman set from MidwayUSA for many years, but when I started to work on my own more expensive guns, I went for the more elaborate Magna-Tip set from Brownells. With the Brownells set, you can replace every single individual bit if you damage one, which sometimes happens.

It's important that the bits are "appropriately hardened": hard enough to work without breaking in most applications, but soft enough to "give" before the screw head does. Like bronze cleaning brushes, I consider the bits to be consumable parts, although at a much less frequent rate!

Here's more information on gunsmith screwdrivers: Pg. 9 Gunsmithing Screwdrivers

Chris
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
Following up again on the topic of .22LR ammunition for the Browning Buck Mark, I have taken a little detour into comparing the Buck Mark with a Ruger, specifically a 22/45™ Target (http://www.ruger.com/products/2245Target/specSheets/10158.html), to see how the two guns compare in terms of sensitivity to ammunition. The Ruger 22/45™ has exactly the same action parts as the Ruger Mk III: it differs mainly by having a composite frame, different grip angle, and a couple of minor changes to retain pins in the frame.

Using the same basic test for the Ruger that I used with the Browning, the results are tabulated below. The Ruger digested everything that I fed it, with one malfunction: a misfire that could only be attributed to faulty ammunition. The round fired on the second attempt when it was re-chambered.

FTE in 20 Rounds
MakeBullet TypeBullet Weight in GrainsVelocity in FPSPower FactorBrand or DescriptionBrowning Buck MarkRuger 22/45™
FederalRound Nose401,08043.20Gold Medal Target70
FederalHollow Point361,26045.36Champion00
CCIHollow Point361,26045.36Mini-Mag™ Varmint00
RemingtonRound Nose401,15046.0022 Target00
RemingtonHollow Point361,28046.08Golden Bullet00/1*
CCIRound Nose401,23549.40Mini-Mag™00
WinchesterHollow Point401,28051.20USA10
WinchesterRound Nose401,30052.00Super Speed RN00
* Note: One round misfired, but fired on the second attempt.

So, why is the Browning more sensitive to "light" ammunition, namely the low-powered Federal Gold Medal Target?

It appears that the Buck Mark slide simply offers more resistance to blowback than does the Ruger bolt. I compared the weight of the slides and the approximate amount of spring force applied by the recoil spring, and put the results in yet another small table (below).

Contrary to my initial impression, the Ruger slide (bolt, in their case) is actually lighter than the Browning component.

The spring force estimate was gathered by simply opening the slide of each gun just enough to insert the finger of a trigger pull gauge, pulling back until I saw the slide start to move, and then noting the reading on the gauge. Not precise, I admit, but at least it gave me a rough idea of the comparative spring force involved.

MakeSlide Weight in OuncesRecoil Spring Power in Pounds
Browning Buck Mark5.2∼4
Ruger 22/45™4.8∼3.5

So, I conclude that the combination of a lighter slide and a lighter recoil spring gives the Ruger the ability to cycle lower-powered "target" ammo better than the Browning Buck Mark.

Chris
 

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The Gunsmith Screwdrivers I use have a handle and a set of interchangeable bits, and I use these on ALL guns. These are good to have because you need to have a precise fit of the bit to the screw to avoid damaging gun screws. I believe this is so because gun screws often have to be installed (or removed) with a good deal of pressure, and because the screws are not always hardened (especially on some makes, like Uberti). Having a perfect bit-to-screw fit ensures that you can get the job done without damaging the screw, or having the screwdriver slip off the screw and scratch the gun. Consider the consequences of a screwdriver slipping and scratching a collectible handgun, versus slipping and scratching a two-by-four in your garage, and you begin to understand why the precision fit is needed, and why they can be so expensive.

Here is a selection of sets from Brownells:

MAGNA-TIP SUPER SETS? | Brownells.

Here are more modestly-priced sets from MidwayUSA:

Wheeler Engineering 89-Piece Professional-Plus Gunsmithing Screwdriver

Chapman Model 8900 27-Piece Deluxe Screwdriver Set

Wheeler Engineering 28-Piece Space-Saver Gunsmithing Screwdriver Set

I used the basic Chapman set from MidwayUSA for many years, but when I started to work on my own more expensive guns, I went for the more elaborate Magna-Tip set from Brownells. With the Brownells set, you can replace every single individual bit if you damage one, which sometimes happens.

It's important that the bits are "appropriately hardened": hard enough to work without breaking in most applications, but soft enough to "give" before the screw head does. Like bronze cleaning brushes, I consider the bits to be consumable parts, although at a much less frequent rate!
Imagine a complete category of tools that I had never heard of... Gunsmithing screwdrivers. I typed "gunsmithing Screwdrivers" into YouTube and was surprised at how many videos there were.

Thanks again... Brownells has the best tools... and you can't buy a tool set with empty holes in the box because the next bit you need will be one you don't have... Of course I will now have to buy a set of those gunsmithing screwdrivers... :D :D :D

Here's more information on gunsmith screwdrivers: Pg. 9 Gunsmithing Screwdrivers

Chris
This article is chock full of good information. I have to admit that I haven't given my screwdrivers (or turnscrews :) ) as much loving care as the author of this article. I have many screwdrivers that have been altered for specific, custom purposes, but most of them were shaped on a bench grinder and came from Sears.

First time I have heard the term hollow-ground. It makes sense, though. Tapered-ground screwdrivers put pressure at the top of the screw head... just where you don't want it. I have ground a few screwdrivers to a hollow-ground shape without knowing the correct term.

This has turned out to be a very informative (and quite likely expensive) thread. Thank you once again for sharing your knowledge so freely.
 

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Following up again on the topic of .22LR ammunition for the Browning Buck Mark, I have taken a little detour into comparing the Buck Mark with a Ruger, specifically a 22/45™ Target (Ruger® 22/45? Target Rimfire Pistol Model 10158), to see how the two guns compare in terms of sensitivity to ammunition. The Ruger 22/45™ has exactly the same action parts as the Ruger Mk III: it differs mainly by having a composite frame, different grip angle, and a couple of minor changes to retain pins in the frame.

Using the same basic test for the Ruger that I used with the Browning, the results are tabulated below. The Ruger digested everything that I fed it, with one malfunction: a misfire that could only be attributed to faulty ammunition. The round fired on the second attempt when it was re-chambered.

FTE in 20 Rounds
MakeBullet TypeBullet Weight in GrainsVelocity in FPSPower FactorBrand or DescriptionBrowning Buck MarkRuger 22/45™
FederalRound Nose401,08043.20Gold Medal Target70
FederalHollow Point361,26045.36Champion00
CCIHollow Point361,26045.36Mini-Mag™ Varmint00
RemingtonRound Nose401,15046.0022 Target00
RemingtonHollow Point361,28046.08Golden Bullet00/1*
CCIRound Nose401,23549.40Mini-Mag™00
WinchesterHollow Point401,28051.20USA10
WinchesterRound Nose401,30052.00Super Speed RN00
* Note: One round misfired, but fired on the second attempt.
Interesting that the round that misfired had one of the highest powerfactors of all the ammo you shot. Not sure what would cause misfires in a 22LR... Maybe there was a gap in the primer compound in one small spot... I dunno... I don't know that much about rimfire ammunition.

Sure does seem that the Ruger Mk III is less sensitive to ammunition though.

Could you tell any difference in felt recoil between the different ammunition? Not sure if it would be as noticeable as larger centerfire cartridges... I don't shoot rimfire pistols very often.

So, why is the Browning more sensitive to "light" ammunition, namely the low-powered Federal Gold Medal Target?

It appears that the Buck Mark slide simply offers more resistance to blowback than does the Ruger bolt. I compared the weight of the slides and the approximate amount of spring force applied by the recoil spring, and put the results in yet another small table (below).

Contrary to my initial impression, the Ruger slide (bolt, in their case) is actually lighter than the Browning component.

The spring force estimate was gathered by simply opening the slide of each gun just enough to insert the finger of a trigger pull gauge, pulling back until I saw the slide start to move, and then noting the reading on the gauge. Not precise, I admit, but at least it gave me a rough idea of the comparative spring force involved.

MakeSlide Weight in OuncesRecoil Spring Power in Pounds
Browning Buck Mark5.2∼4
Ruger 22/45™4.8∼3.5

So, I conclude that the combination of a lighter slide and a lighter recoil spring gives the Ruger the ability to cycle lower-powered "target" ammo better than the Browning Buck Mark.

Chris
Excellent forensic analysis!

I suspect you are right.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Interesting that the round that misfired had one of the highest powerfactors of all the ammo you shot. Not sure what would cause misfires in a 22LR... Maybe there was a gap in the primer compound in one small spot... I dunno... I don't know that much about rimfire ammunition.
My guess is that the misfire came from just what you mentioned, faulty application of the primer compound. It's not all that rare, but people who shoot a lot of rimfire (steel shooters, at least at my club) just deal with it and move on. They have a pretty good sense of what ammunition is reliable: Federal Champion and anything from CCI are two brands that I commonly see at matches, as I recall, but it has been a while. I am sure that somewhere out there in the land of rimfire, somebody has done a study of ammunition reliability. We all shoot CCI when we can get it, of that much I'm sure.

..Could you tell any difference in felt recoil between the different ammunition? Not sure if it would be as noticeable as larger centerfire cartridges... I don't shoot rimfire pistols very often...
Yes, you can feel the difference in recoil between the top and bottom ends of the power factor scale all right, but it's not a huge difference, as you correctly guessed.

Chris
 

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Looked at a nice Browning Buckmark in a local gun shop yesterday... They are difficult to find. I like everything about the Buckmark... Nice feel... Good grip angle... Good weight...

One thing I noticed was that it wouldn't fire without the magazine... Was your Buckmark like that too? Is it something you can remove/strip out?
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
..One thing I noticed was that it wouldn't fire without the magazine... Was your Buckmark like that too? Is it something you can remove/strip out?
Mine will fire without a magazine being present, apparently the magazine safety is a new feature. If you Google "disconnect remove buckmark magazine safety" you will see that others have broken the trail, so to speak.

Chris
 

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Chris,
I recently picked up a Buckmark at a local pawn shop. It looked like new but I could tell it had a lot of rounds through it.
It had not been cleaned in some time: the safety was so tight it would barely move. For $150 I said what that the heck.
Took it home and gave it a thorough cleaning. I took it to the range and fired basically the same brands of ammo that
you compared and I had exactly the same results. Federal Gold Medal Target just would not work. Every round after the
first stove piped, FTE or FTF. Everything else fired perfectly. BTW: This pistol was born in 1985, the year the Buckmark
was introduced. I have ordered all new springs and a recoil spring assembly for it. Will try to get some pics up soon.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Chris,
I recently picked up a Buckmark at a local pawn shop. It looked like new but I could tell it had a lot of rounds through it.
It had not been cleaned in some time: the safety was so tight it would barely move. For $150 I said what that the heck.
Took it home and gave it a thorough cleaning. I took it to the range and fired basically the same brands of ammo that
you compared and I had exactly the same results. Federal Gold Medal Target just would not work. Every round after the
first stove piped, FTE or FTF. Everything else fired perfectly. BTW: This pistol was born in 1985, the year the Buckmark
was introduced. I have ordered all new springs and a recoil spring assembly for it. Will try to get some pics up soon.
Rowdie,

That is a heck of a good price for a BuckMark. Which barrel length did you get?

With this winter weather (up here it just rains all the time) I'm going to take my BuckMark to the indoor .22 range at my gun club this week for a little trigger time. Still can't get .22LR around here, so we're careful about how much we shoot...

Chris
 

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It's a 5.5 inch barrel. I think that maybe the only length they made that first year. Not sure.
It has a fixed rear sight. I've been looking at some adjustable rear sights and a fiber optic front.
I'm a bit confused because some sights are marked "not for use on pre-2001 models". It's is
probably more accurate than I am with the sights that are one it!
.22LR has been a lot more plentiful here in past few months. I picked up 1200 rounds of CCI
Mini-Mag HP ($110) at a local gun shop. They said they had plenty more!
Thanks for posting this thread. Good info.
 
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